lotro dps. They also deliver better DPS than WLs and are slightly safer when ranged battles are going on (like the Grams-Lug shuffle). lotro dps

 
 They also deliver better DPS than WLs and are slightly safer when ranged battles are going on (like the Grams-Lug shuffle)lotro dps R

3. Dedicated to The Lord of the Rings Online, the MMORPG based on Professor J. R. Warden is a great and fun solo class, but it's hard to learn for a begginner. R. If you are a new player to the Lord of the Rings Online MMORPG in 2023, or maybe you used to play LOTRO but you've been on a hiatus, you might feel a bit ove. Priority in your group: 1. But a lot of leveling 50+ compared to others. R. Captains specializing in Leader of Men (yellow) make wonderful tanks for multiple group sizes. If you are looking for the best class to solo Delvings, yellow Champion with Killing Spree trained in Red is good at lower delving levels. Good mix of damage, self preservation, and utility. If you like to be in the heat of battle, right up close with your enemies you will want to consider the following classes: See moreHunter. This is the LOTRO Basics class page for the Champion class in the Lord of the Rings Online - containing a list of class guides and resources with the goal to provide. 5, in April 2021. A few times a year the Curator is available in Bree. If you really want to play another class that is also a ranged caster you can either choose Minstrel/yellow Runekeeper for single target dps(don’t worry, both have no problems when dealing with about 3-4 enemies at once) or red Runekeeper for AoE and DoT damage all of these work for landscape content but Minstrel and Yellow RK are more fun. -> Brutal Charge -> Hammer Down -> Stamp -> Sting -> Brutal Assault -> Ignore the Pain. 350 (241,3%)Critical Rating. General Information. shann124 • 3 yr. He has some AoE, but champion or brawler are better suited for AoE. Welcome to LotroHQ! Your resource for class builds in The Lord of the Rings Online. Role summary: Tank - Someone who can survive a lot of damage, takes aggro from enemies, and protects allies. Update 37 includes an extensive update to the Beorning. Unlike other classes, there are no alternative skills for rotation, there is just 1 rotation and you can reliably use it from the beginning to the end, at least that is what I found. Burglar soloing requires strategy and planning, and once you have those. It's a red minstrel line problem. Beornings, burglars and wardens are the least played. I chose to main rune keeper and he is only level 15 right now but you are seriously making me consider switching to lore master! I think the main thing for me is I like to DPS and heal and RK is perfect for both while LM is more debuff/CC. Some prefer man for incoming healing. Post-100, I find yellow no longer worth it. Not impossible, but relatively more difficult than red, which breezes thru all the mob grp campsObviously it's not the difficulty level that's the problem, otherwise Hunters wouldn't be out there rinsing 2 mobs at once before they even get close. . Captains and Guardians can only really take the debuff to tier 3. The guide covers an in depth analysis of the. Welcome, here you will find a good build for Guardian tanks, which is specifically tuned for high-end Raids/Instances. In terms of utility, LM/Burg - For debuffs and buffs. Red - parry chain and bleeds take priority. 3. lightning-storm (3) – 30% lightning-storm base damage. Trait Trees. Minstrel is very viable solo. Step 3 – Acquire traceries from quests, drops or barterer in rivendell. Each class in LOTRO has a Class Slot on your character panel. By their own strength of arms and the inspiration they instill in others, they must lead the Free Peoples to victory. But, the recently added race of High Elf made it all a bit spicier . LotroHQ - Class Builds, Tips & Tricks for LOTRO Warden. Blue Build. Step 2 – Reforge LI to your current level to open up more sockets and increase DPS. Even for dungeons the trade-off in dps gets more skewed as you lvl. In Lotro, the role of a Main Tank is mostly fulfilled by the Guardian or Captain. DPS; Newest class to LOTRO! Fist-fighting melee class who can focus on powerful punches as a DPS or taking a defensive approach as a tank, all while offering close range support to allies. The_Motorboater • Brandywine: Kambalami • 4 yr. Call of Oromë: an AoE skill which reduces your enemies' resistance to light damage, thus raising the damage of almost all your skillsprobably the best overall solo class is the captain as stated in other comments. Can be purchased alone starting in May 2022. DPS (Damage per Second) DPS or Damage per Second as stated on weapon tooltips is the calculated number that takes the average of the min and max damage on a weapon, the weapon speed, and your own strength or other attributes. Like many other classes, the general skill priority for a DPS Lore Master is to use your strongest skills first. The Brawler class was added to the Lord of the Rings Online with the Fate of Gundabad expansion. Find the best LOTRO Class Builds, Guides, Tips & Tricks here! We hope this guide will be useful to you. For Champions, Dwarf and Hobbit Annimations are much longer than. The word “Soldier” is used regardless of what role you. Dedicated to The Lord of the Rings Online, the MMORPG based on Professor J. Blue 6/10 Pure tank. So if you do 1,000 DPS you generate 3,000 perceived threat. Tolkien's beloved fantasy series. youll also find as a captain you can basically recruit anyone to do instances with you and keep them up while tanking. Champ is one of the best dps classes in the game, red captain with 2h is a necessary support for most raids. 1. Mini has 2 bubbles later on, has some great self-heal while in red trait and can unleash some pretty good AoE combos. • 5 yr. Champions are a pure DPS role in LotRO and deal tremendous AoE damage to deal with multiple enemies at once. As mentioned earlier, two ways you can go about traiting and playing a Red Captain. If I had to pick one, it'd be Elf because they have a much more enjoyable tutorial area. Champion Weapons & Equipment. The gambit system is susceptible to LAG. For details see Burglar. They also increased the cooldown of the play dead skill, making it something you need to manage more. Captain - DPS Support or Tank (Less so) Champion - DPS. Melée DPS, Ranged DPS, Healer and Support. Red Captain: DPS/Damage Buff Spec. Lord of the Rings Online (LOTRO) is previewing its Mariner class, which brings high DPS and fun buffs, snares, and healing to the classing MMO. Currently use this guide as a start point for your level 140 journey. ago. Find tips, leveling builds and other information under Leveling. I share my class tier list for the Lord of the Rings Online based on VIABILITY in group content, focusing on endgame specifically! I cover each class's overall performance in LOTRO, as. LotroHQ - Class Builds, Tips & Tricks for LOTRO Champion. Race Guides, gear guides and more can be found be found under Other Guides. Here, you'll find a wealth of information and analysis…Red Line DPS Burglar 'Quiet Knife' Build By Moskin - Updated for Yondershire, U33 Table of Contents Introduction Stat Goals Gear End-game Build Starter Build Essences Trait Trees Virtues Legendary Items Swap LIs Rotation Consumables Introduction Welcome, here you will find a good Red Burg build, tuned for high Single Target DPS, with a nice…Hunter and champions take up 45% of all online characters. Guardians are exactly what their name suggests: they keep others safe. All of them have their own unique role in raid and can't be replaced with others. Fact is, RK dps is extremely low in raids compared to other dps (maybe 100k lower on average). Once you have Essay of Fire, you can even sort of kite in redline. In Fellowships, a Lore-master concentrates on supporting his or her allies, primarily by hindering the foe's ability to deal. Gamblers advantage and aim are 2 skills which will make aoe attacks happen more often. So mainly Yellow burg. I share my class tier list for the Lord of the Rings Online based on VIABILITY in group content, focusing on endgame specifically! I cover each class's overall performance in LOTRO, as well as. So now I'm leveling my Beorning and falling in love. The dps is so high, that even when DUOING 6-man instances, you can still pull it off on your red line. Tanking though, the current raid (conveniently released with the same expansion brawler was introduced in) makes wonderful use of the brawler. Guardian's aren't expected to do high DPS, so be prepared to not be invited to endgame content though, unless it's a PUG. Runekeeper used to be top tier DPS about a year ago. But his gambit system always train your memory. Warden is a slow starter DPS so takes a little longer, but durable as a wart hog, and can do bleeds taps aoe and ranged attacks - self healing. Both leveling guides are basically go full of the traitline and fill up with yellow traits. Sustained Single DPS - Maintain power/dps for longer fights Burst DPS - Use everything you got to burn it down. Champ: High elf > man > elf > hobbit/dwarf/stout axe. Speaking as a level 130 Red Captain decked out in raid gear - BY GOD is it true. ago. Dedicated to The Lord of the Rings Online, the MMORPG based on Professor J. This class is inspired by. The heals are good when you're not playing. Female > male. Currently use this guide as a start point for your level 140 journey. easy for a Champion or a Guardian. Dwarf because screw you, bow-wielding bastards. They can also heal. The main DPS classes in lotro are hunter and champion, they only really have one role and that is to do damage. So yeah, for solo play - go red. Through unparalleled mastery of Angerthas and Tengwar runes, a Rune-keeper evokes much more than a normal scribe. So you are a heavy armour DPS and it feels sturdy enough for solo content. Page 1 of 3. In terms of DPS, they fall somewhere between these two classes, generally hitting harder than a Minstrel but not as hard as a Runekeeper. Beorning Guide by squirle on the LOTRO forums (2019-04-22) - Covers basic information and skills used, sample trait builds for each line, and an analysis of all traits available to. esp go and look at tree named "Tree 2 which includes. . However I recently ventured into Garth Agarwen on level and using the blue Keeper of Animals line ran through to Grimbark unchallenged, Ivar was manageable with CC and the bear but sadly my rampage stopped at. Might sound weird but hear me out: I know Captains have their role but I want to level my lvl 42 Man Captain faster and wondered what the highest DPS build be. R. If for a ranged like hunter, the melee weapon dps does not affect much, so more agility is better due to the extra physical mastery affecting dps on the bow, and thus the skills and overall dps. Other information sources available. They generally do better DPS with a 2-Hander Weapon than Dual-wield, as most of the skills in Bear form are single-hit, which benefit more from a 2-Hander Weapon. Welcome to LotroHQ’s Champion builds! You can click on the image of the red/blue/yellow build to visit the associated guide. Issue with saying they are good dps, is new players read it and assume they are useful in raids, then spend however long. Trying to decide on a race for a new starting player in lotro and have heard bad things about playing anything but Human Champion. LotroHQ – Class Builds, Tips & Tricks for LOTRO. . The following is a list of commonly assigned duties: Raid/Fellowship LeaderLOTRO Guardian Class Guides and Resources. extremely tanky, lower end of dps but good enough for landscape content, and a good amount of utility and sustain. Captains are especially good because they can main tank, do awesome DPS multiplier support, or heal depending on spec. Burglars and other classes won't be hitting quite their numbers but they'll have other things to contribute. Note: you will need to log in each character and load their bags and vaults to intially populate the data. 1. Post-100, I find yellow no longer worth it. While any class can solo these days fairly. If you want to heal on minstrel, you will definitely want to have 2 sets of 2x legendary items; 1 set for healing and 1 set for dps. Class Difficulty: Advanced Role: Healer/Defence Available to races: Beorning Gameplay: Beornings are skin-changers that can change into the form of a bear in combat. Run the copy of DPSMeter. Welcome to LotroHQ’s Hunter builds! You can click on the image of the red/blue/yellow build to visit the associated guide. It's also a place you can visit several times a year to see the changes throughout the seasons. In times of need, they use their ability to find cover to exact grievous injury on their enemies. extremely tanky, lower end of dps but good enough for landscape content, and a good amount of utility and sustain. These are currently linked under the "other guides" in their specific class builds. Day 1, idk what I'm doing. All the rest of the instruments annoy me (in a casting context - they're fine for making music!). The quintessential warrior class, the Champion equips Heavy armor and dual wields one-hand melee weapons, they can also equip two-hand and ranged bow/crossbow weapons. Lord of the Rings Online. Beorning is also a good utility choice; DPS is decent, but it can tank very well and heal incredibly well. Captains and Guardians can only really take the debuff to tier 3. End-Game Build. Tolkien's beloved fantasy series. Runekeeper is squishy. Warden has been the safest for level 130 cap, but they just got nerfed and I will be nerfed again at 140 cap. Red line does the most damage, but requires hoping between man form and bear form to maximize all your bleeds. LotroHQ – Class Builds, Tips & Tricks for LOTRO. Captain is pretty well rounded and has a smooth progression until endgame, while Beorning is a half-baked concept that bludgeons things with raw numbers until it can't. It's only for yellow line and im. LotroHQ - Class Builds, Tips & Tricks for LOTRO Lore-master. In a single target fight, Hunter is on. Use runestones to heal your party. For general questing yellow will be fastest. The following is a list of commonly assigned duties: Raid/Fellowship LeaderDedicated to The Lord of the Rings Online, the MMORPG based on Professor J. My dps is slightly lower than my hunter but my damage taken is WAY less. I'm a bit shocked at the new Into The Fray version of Resounding Challenge. swords are rather fast weapons, and man gets a bonus for them. They could do with some love. This is the 2h build, with maximum support and damage. This LOTRO class guide focuses on general aspects of the Beorning class, expanding on the overview from LOTRO Basics: Classes of LOTRO Guide. Vexing blow, sweeping cut, and whirling retaliation provide pretty solid AoE damage for solo questing. Beornings, burglars and wardens are the least played. . Usually only used in 12 man raids. A solo captain, even fully-equipped in offensive gear, who is questing, delving, or fighting monster players on their own will struggle to produce meaningful damage, even when compared to non-DPS specializations of some other classes. 9. Having the shortest lifespan and easily falling for dark emotions of betrayal and ambition, the Race of Man may seem like the weakest race. Although the garden is a short drive from downtown Victoria, it is one of the premier tourist attractions in the area and worth taking the time to see. Dedicated to The Lord of the Rings Online, the MMORPG based on Professor J. I’ve been playing a Rune-keeper in LOTRO on and off since 2008, and I thoroughly enjoy it. Use the following static rotation for the easier method. Basically mini DPS is just fine as soon as you get access to legendary weapons. Redline is actualy sort of "bad", and when pugs look for dps they literally never EVER consider beorning - like other user said, you can go do T1 in like kinship/friend group. More specifically, the iron city in the poisonous wastes of northern Middle-earth, Carn Dûm. Never have any real issues with the class except being aggressive and taking on as many mobs as I can. Burglar and Brawler crowd control removal skills are currently only working on roots, and will not remove Daze, Stun or Knockdown effects. , some tank specs are not good enough to fill the tank role, some DPS specs don't do enough damage, etc. That's just the way it is. This is a Lord of the Rings Online guide on the red line specialization for the Warden, Recklessness. . Find the best LOTRO Class Builds, Guides, Tips & Tricks here!Ever since its initial release in 2007, The Lord of the Rings Online's massively multiplayer online experience featured a unique mode, Player vs. click the green box on the left to minimize dass. Along side rBeorning and rCaptain. They are also unrivaled with their tanking ability, especially with the blue and yellow trait lines. DPS but I’d say the current order of raid viability is guaranteed spot for 1 Warden, at least 1 Champ(probably more), and 1 RK(the DPS buffs they offer are almost always worth taking). When first playing LotRO, many will want to build a classic Lord of the Rings character like Aragorn or Legolas, and in that case, the Hunter class is the one to choose. They are incredibly sturdy using damage reduction and self-heal skills, which is perfect for dealing with mitigation-reducing bosses. During the gap periods, it is best to alternate Burning Embers with. Here's the first of our 3-part guide into the inner workiIn addition to tanking and dps, the Brawler has a number of buffs available to improve the fighting prowess and survivability of themselves and their fellows. Legendary Items (LIs) are customized by adding Traceries, which are granted as quest rewards or as drops in. Otherwise, it may be good for classes that have multiple specs (like captain can dps/tank/heal or minstrel can dps/heal) to barter for a full set of 2x LI per spec and keep them in your inventory. To properly utilize these builds you’ll want to be maximum level, and it’s also recommended that you have a least a basic understanding of the class you want to play before trying to follow the guides in order to follow the skill rotations and information effectively. Sadly champions will never get to make their own honey cakes. R. Role. Drums. Class. Hunter is the single-target DPS king, is probably the easiest class to play, and has great quality of life for landscape (multiple quick travel skills, passive speed increase, long range). 685. By the time you hit Moria, yellow spec should be your default spec, with only going to red for boss fights, and only going to blue. that one of recomended "raid setup" that maximize dps, looks like that. [deleted] • 1 yr. R. Melee: melee weapons (single or two-handed) - DPS, Minimum and Maximum Damage as shown. Brawlers can also headbutt and throw tankards at people so they are 100% Prancing Pony certified ready for RP :P. For DPS: they added more damaging gambits and cashout mechanic, while all other skills are the same , I don't get how adding mechanics and skills is simplifying or easier to play, maybe compared to old spec yellow + red with. It’s not a bad pet, if you can stand all the flapping and whatnot, but it seems a little frail. At the current level cap (140) with the current endgame raid (Hiddenhoard), the Brawler is only viable as a Tank in high tiers. The DPS number is defined in the weapon by an item level+quality driven progression. However, both Captains and Beornings pay for the extra toughness/healing with lower DPS. If you have any questions, feel free to ask them on the LHQ Discord. LOTRO Basics is a website that has all of the Lord of the Rings Online guides you need! Quick tips guide for the Rune Keeper class in the Lord of the Rings Online covering gameplay, traits, builds, gear, and more!. A couple of skills also will start conjunctions. 1, released on Wednesday, April 19th, 2023. Tolkien's beloved fantasy series. With this knowledge, a Rune-keeper crafts powerful rune-words that help the Free Peoples. Lord of the Rings Online. Currently use this guide as a start point for your level 140 journey. Well, a DPS paired with a tank or healer is the best "class", at least based on my 30+ T10 completions. Your stance changes your skill tooltips. Yellow guard with a 2h is just strictly inferior to using blue with a shield in every way for tanking. Dedicated to The Lord of the Rings Online, the MMORPG based on Professor J. Welcome, here you will find a good Red Burg build, tuned for high Single Target DPS, with a nice AoE cleave. From normal mob to signatures, it takes seconds to kill things. Hunter and champions take up 45% of all online characters. R. Also 3% crit from traceries, nice!Next video will be with a dwarf warden I'll promise. You can use Blindside when you need full focus for Upshot, Quickshot is otherwise your best focus generator. It has no real 1:1 comparison but the damage profile when doing damage will feel fairly similar to destruction warlock or affliction warlock. This profession can be found in the following vocations: Armourer, Explorer, Yeoman. Might sound weird but hear me out: I know Captains have their role but I want to level my lvl 42 Man Captain faster and wondered what the highest DPS build be. LotroHQ – Class Builds, Tips & Tricks for LOTRO. You can just randomly press few buttons for solo content. Dedicated to The Lord of the Rings Online, the MMORPG based on Professor J. Just prioritize using your Calls/Cries as they become available. ago. Both classes are all-rounders that can tank, heal or dps, but in practice Captain is a DPS or Tank, while Beorning is a DPS or Healer. Combat Analysis used to allow combat data to be shared ages ago but that was removed (as a result of changes to underlying LUA code in LOTRO); it's generally for the best as it prevents people from /flexing about stuff or excluding based off that kind of data. 1. However, hunters lack consistent AoE and should be careful when. By far my favorite class thus far. Heal - Someone who raises the morale (health) of allies, preventing them from dying. Drums. . The Beorning class is one of the playable classes in Lotro. ago. I get the 5% bonus sword damage from the human race trait but I also have 5% bonus damage halberd training passive trait so my guess would be two handed sword/halberd is the highest DPS. Burg is always in demand in raids and can output decent sustained DPS, which is good for tier 1/2 content, but its main job is support. Every forum for this game is filled with people telling others just starting out not to play class x, y, or z. LOTRO spec balance is in a total mess. Tolkien's beloved fantasy series. Tolkien's beloved fantasy series. This is a very extensive guide to the Warden class in the Lord of the Rings Online (LOTRO). You will focus on keeping the threat level up, which keeps the enemies on you and debuffing to weaken them. Current Meta (U 30) Hi Guys. Each class has a bonus for its specific weapon choice. *Temporary note - Atm the website is being updated for 2023. Red Captain is a must for just about any instance/raid. In this Lord of The Rings Online video we Rank Our Top 5 DPS Classes in solo PVE and in Raids. Having played brawler up to about level 40 I can say safely that your guide really rings true, I've only recently got access to the buffs on spender skills, one of my gripes is that it's not 100% clear on what skills actually trigger what buffs (unless you review them in the skills panel), and without a shadow of a doubt the damage buffs are. Skirmishes in The Lord of the Rings Online are akin to smaller dungeons that have specific mechanics. 2, in January 2021. It's a burst class. Yellow Champion is easy to get the hang of, as the cooldowns on AoE skills are somewhat long, which gives you lots of flexibility to do. 12. Until then you could ask in World Chat if you can use the dummy of somebody else or enter a Kin which has one at their kin house. At level 20, this ability gains a corruption removal which is very important for a lot of encounters. R. R. Welcome to LotroHQ's Champion builds! You can click on the image of the red/blue/yellow build to visit the associated guide. Always a good pick. Red Captain can do well on single target but this most recent update nerfed their damage a bit. *Comes with the Fate of. This class is inspired by the famous Bilbo Baggins, who accompanied Thorin and Company on their quest to the Lonely Mountain. 1 goes beta. They can control more mobs. The Passive dummies are really simply cosmetic and used by NPCs while the Active dummies can be used by any player character. Beornings are now able to change into Bear Form with 0 Wrath. This is the LOTRO Basics class page for the Lore Master class in the Lord of the Rings Online - containing a list of class guides and resources with the goal to provide the community with up-to-date and current information on the class! This page was last updated during Update 29. Aside from staying alive (morale and mitigations) the most important stat for red captain is critical rating because parts of your core buffing role depend on critical hits. Wardens are insane, nerf. Tolkien's beloved fantasy series. Heal the tank; a dead tank is a soon to be dead mini. The meter just displays total damage done during the current combat divided by total time the current combat has lasted for. Updated: January 30, 2023. But a lot of leveling 50+ compared to others. Alternatively you can use the incomparable gear obtained via the delving system from T7 to T10 chests. Welcome to LotroHQ’s Burglar builds! You can click on the image of the red/blue/yellow build to visit the associated guide. I have a Champion on. It was added to the game with Update 15 - Gondor Aflame, in 2014. Trait Trees. . This build focuses on melee DPS and leveling with AoE and damage. For me I often switch between theorbo and flute. R. 5. I've been a Minstrel and Hunter player for ages, but grown tired of ranged DPS. This build focuses on tanking group content and self-sustain for soloing. “Good” high level classes such as wardens and captains have more 120+ online compared to other classes. If you are a new player to the Lord of the Rings Online MMORPG in 2023, or maybe you used to play LOTRO but you've been on a hiatus, you might feel a bit ove. LEVELING (or Landscape/missions): All 3 trait lines work well. right click any of these and it will reset the info. The stats from the LI's boost the skill a ton, so as mentioned by u/revo442, you need to make a DPS leg. In addition to tanking and dps, the Brawler has a number of buffs available to improve the fighting prowess and survivability of themselves and their fellows. To unlock Legendary Items (LIs) you must first reach level 45 or higher. Several of their skills increase the incoming damage of enemies. Welcome to LotroHQ’s Hunter builds! You can click on the image of the red/blue/yellow build to visit the associated guide. Tailor Review: Crafts light and medium armor. LotroHQ – Class Builds, Tips & Tricks for LOTRO. Beornings are a unique race and class combination introduced to LOTRO with the Gondor Aflame update in 2014. . · Blue: Healer – Focuses on healing the fellowship with powerful heal over times and bubbles. They rely on sleight-of-hand and starting attacks that allow their companions to overwhelm adversaries. After the recent update they are decent at solo dps for your weekly and other activities. Regarding weapon dps, skills scale based off your weapon dps, that's true, but lotro's way of scaling skills is a bit strange. For many years minstrel wasn't main healer. Last update: June. In this guide to the LOTRO Champion class, you will learn what it’s like to play the Champion, which virtues to slot, which vocations are useful, build suggestions, and more. -Hearten is good enough for landscape, can even trait into composure later on if you play alone and don't need to heal anyone. Skills Default SkillsOne last point: If redline truly is the most optimal choice for maximizing sustained hunter DPS, then that's a mistake on SSG's part. Hunter that keeps enemies at a distance and has the amazing travel skills for porting around middle earth is an amazing solo class. Welcome to LotroHQ’s Lore-Master builds! You can click on the image of the red/blue/yellow build to visit the. They can also wield two-handed weapons like swords, axes, and hammers. Even in skirms & (some) group content. Warden, Beorning, and champion tanks could be buffed. Dps is maybe the best on a single target. There is an easier alternative but the DPS ceiling with it is lower. Dagor runes deal with battle, Nestad with healing, and Thalas with. One tree is more DPS/Bleeds focused and the other tree is purely for Heals/HPS/Power Restore with hardly any DPS capabilities. This is just a personal opinion piece so do not take this as g. Guards and Wardens are actually better tanks IMO. A Stat Tome is a device to permanently increase one of your character's five basic Character Stats ( Agility, Fate, Might, Vitality and Will ). You won't DPS in higher tier group settings with those 2.